By Kostas Giataganas/ info@eurohoops.net While the first part of the interview was more focused on CSKA Moscow and things happening on the court, in this second part coach Itoudis talks about the possibility of a new EuroLeague format, the idea of a final happening after the league finals and the playoffs being the way to decide who is really the best. The Greek coach also comments on the FIBA vs EuroLeague debate, the recent Eurobasket, the national team windows and the idea of him sitting on the bench of the Greek national team. The taxing format and the proposition for the playoffs and the final How do you assess the EuroLeague’s new format from experiencing it last year? Is it really as taxing and demanding as it looks to us from the outside? “It was a new situation for us too, for the coaches, the athletes, and the teams, because we now had to adopt a different approach in regards to training, traveling, the rotation of players, the management of situations… We had back-to-back games at least 3 or 4 times that involved traveling, then playing, then the next day training at dawn and then playing again. For us, it was something unprecedented. I had experienced this in the NBA when I went to Detroit the year we weren’t active with Zeljko (2012/2013), but experiencing it from the inside and looking at how you can manage it, is something different. Obviously, it’s very interesting for the fans, because everyone I’ve discussed this with, with friends or anyone, Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, which were Champions League days for them, now they generally watched basketball. We were interested in what CSKA was doing, or Panathinaikos, Olympiacos, Fener. We are interested in this whole concept. The fact that we had games until the end, where the bottom teams like Milan or Crvena Zvezda beat playoff teams like Real, who were at the top at that point, shows that our league was very competitive and that it can shape certain situations. For example, we finished the new EuroLeague with the fewest defeats in all the games, but we didn’t win the title and didn’t reach the final. That didn’t give us something, but if you take a look at the numbers, we were better than Fener and Real and everyone in terms of our win-loss record. But we don’t play for that; we play for the trophy. So, it gives us one more way to approach things and see things differently, what it means to be first during the regular season and what it means to be fourth. Almost nothing… In the sense that you want to have the home court advantage. From there, you want to say, for example, that Baskonia was the worst team compared to Panathinaikos, who had the momentum at that point, playing against Fener. They were having very good games and they deserved the home court advantage, but they lost 3-0 to the better Fener in that particular series. So, the best thing is to have a duration in order to stay in the top eight. That’s what the EuroLeague taught us, that you have to be in the top eight. The perfect situation is to be in the top four so you have an advantage, but just being in the top eight is ideal.” Do you think the new system looks more “fair” since everyone plays against everyone else in the regular season? “Now you’re… provoking me. For me, basketball means playoffs. Suggesting something like this in football is utopic… I made two suggestions to Mr. Bertomeu, for whom I have infinite respect, as I do for the EuroLeague. I think that they put you in a marathon, which is very nice for the fans. They watch great games all the time… Straining for the athletes, but the point is to put on a show for the people, that’s what they’re paid for… A marathon of 30 games, with the possibility of another five games in the playoffs. So, that takes us to 35 games. A marathon of 35 games and then they say it’s “sudden death”, and then you’re at one game and whatever happens, happens. What you’ve done in those 35 games can count or not count… The Americans are not stupid. Not in matters of revenues, not in matters of evaluation, popularity, assessment of teams’ progress. Basketball means playoffs. I say this with great respect for the Final Four, because I’ve been an important part of Panathinaikos when we won five trophies, I’m a head coach, we won the trophy last year with CSKA after eight years. I completely respect the Final Four and I’m preparing in order to get there. Whether we lost or didn’t lose is no excuse. I don’t think it should be considered an excuse by anyone, but I believe the evolution of basketball is the playoffs. If we don’t want to change the playoffs, I have another proposition. To have 30 games during the regular season, another five in the playoffs, which is 35, but also playoffs in the semifinals as well. What were the semifinals last year? Olympiacos-CSKA, Fener-Real. You’re going to tell me that that wouldn’t be of enormous interest for the media and the people, filling up the SEF, the OAKA, our own home court, Fener’s home court? You go up to 40 possible games and then we can try a final. Why do I say a final? My proposition is that this final can be the last game that basketball teams will play, like in the Champions League. I’ll give you an example. When we won the EuroLeague in Berlin in 2016, among the many congratulations, which were thousands, Joe Dumars called me, like others did from the NBA, and told me, “Congratulations, now you can rest, and light a cigar.” And I told him, “Rest? Tomorrow I’m playing with Khimki.” He says, “What Khimki? But you won the trophy.” And I answered, “We have semifinals against Khimki. We also have to win the VTB. The season cannot be over yet.” He says, “But you won the big trophy, what Khimki?” This, of course, with all due respect to Khimki, but I’m just explaining how they see it from their perspective. Wasn’t this the big competition? This was the big goal. That’s what we know. But we are all called – all of us, like Olympiacos, Panathinaikos, when we were winning the trophies, Fener, Real… – we are called to go and play a series of games where you might just not be able to perform, either because you’re disappointed because you didn’t win it, or because you were celebrating because you did win it… Sloukas talked about this as well. You were watching the Fener-Besiktas game and for the athletes, it was almost like drudgery, they couldn’t produce energy. And aside from this, and this is something you can write, I told this to colleagues of mine and I don’t know if it’s been written. Take a look at the finals in countries that are represented with two or more teams in the EuroLeague – aside from Greece, which is an exception because there wasn’t any difference since Panathinaikos and Olympiacos are a level above all the others and they played in the final – but take a look at what happened elsewhere. In the VTB, the final was between CSKA and Khimki, who were not in the EuroLeague. Their European commitments in the EuroCup had been over much earlier. UNICS, who were in the EuroLeague, were swallowed up in the VTB. In Spain, the final was between a EuroLeague team (Real) and a EuroCup team (Valencia) and the EuroCup team won it. In Israel, Maccabi, who are in the EuroLeague, lost the final. Over to Italy, where Milan was not even in the final. If you take a look at the strain on the teams, with all the coming and going, it’s not easy to manage. Aside of Greece, where the pair was the two EuroLeague teams, due to a particularity, though there is also AEK, who are making big steps, Aris, PAOK… Those are five teams, but in our leagues it’s not five teams. I have to travel in the VTB, to go to Yenisey, where there is a time difference of four hours, five in the winter. In the same country, there is a time difference of four hours. It’s almost jet lag. We go there and we try to adjust the team as though we are in Moscow. When it’s 7 there, in Moscow it’s 3, which is afternoon, and in one day it’s not easy for the body to adjust. In Astana, it’s a difference of three hours. It’s not the same for Olympiacos to fly to Thessaloniki to play, or to play in Athens, or Chalkida, the distances are small. In Spain it’s not the same. That’s why the Spanish teams want to have their own league. Real suddenly have to leave Moscow and go play to the Canary Islands. Is it the same strain on Real as it is on Panathinaikos or Olympiacos? All of these things have to form a general framework for the media and those who write, so that people can understand that things are not that simple. You think, ‘They have the biggest budget, they have to win it. They have a small budget, they are heroes’… But you have to look at the conditions, at what’s going on. How does this whole thing work? There are particularities. So you are proposing to have playoffs in the semifinals too… “My position is playoffs to the end. I expressed an alternative opinion. This final, like Olympiacos-Fener this year, imagine that in the same arena which has been agreed upon beforehand, but allowing a time frame of 20 days, like you do before the Final Four, so that the fans of the two teams and everyone who loves basketball, are able to watch the final like in the Champions League. To have a game but have the arena full of those fans. Now, we have a Final Four, on which we put the 3-4, which doesn’t have any real substance, the fans try to get rid of the tickets, sell them on the black market, etc… The fans of the teams that are in the final are expecting it and it’s going to be commercial and it will take place in a city that will also be agreed upon beforehand. You’ll have more games, more playoffs.” And have the final after the leagues are over… “First wait for the leagues to be over and then have the final. I’m making this proposition and perhaps even the decision-makers might say, “What are you talking about? We already have the season planned out, the windows…” I believe all this can be done in a context of harmony and cooperation between the two bodies and find a solution in order to reduce the number of teams in the domestic leagues, because that’s where we’re headed… I said it before. The Spanish teams say no to increasing the number of teams, which makes sense, and if you don’t want that we’ll have our own league. This whole thing can be harmonized with having the EuroLeague final as the last game of the season. But we all have to be on the same side to do all this.” The big debate between FIBA and the EuroLeague, and the rules You mentioned an ideal situation of harmony and collaboration but, right now, that doesn’t seem to exist… “I’m optimistic that it can be done. Obviously, you’re dealing with egos… It’s like a relationship. In a relationship you have egos, at some point, you might not even speak with your partner, your wife, but you’ll make up, you’ll go on together. We’ll have to go on together, for the good of basketball.” Do you think that both sides (FIBA-EuroLeague) have made mistakes in the way they’ve handled things? “I don’t want to take anyone’s side, but I believe they have to work it out. We’ve had another schism back in 2000 and they worked it out. The point is to work it out and move on together because the point is to have the same rules everywhere in the same sport. Otherwise, we have to name it something else. You go to college basketball and you have different rules, in the NBA different ones, there are different demarcations and dimensions, different courts, different three-point lines. The rules have to be the same in basketball. All the bodies have to get together – NBA, NCAA, FIBA, EuroLeague – and come up with a framework. To say ‘These are the rules,’ and the people will accept that. ‘This is basketball…’ Right now, we have four different kinds of basketball. Now, in friendly games, I discussed with referees about how they’re going to call a travel, how they’re going to call a flagrant… What should people watch? We’ve made people divided, we have to make fans… Basketball is such a beautiful sport and maybe I’m just saying it in a subjective way because I love it, but the people also love it.” These issues concerning different regulations, have you coaches discussed them among yourselves? “Yes, of course, we’ve discussed them. This is the future, to have one basketball, to be able to create that with one common denominator so that everyone will know what is going on in this sport.” The great “leakage” to the NBA and… China Going back to transfers, Rodriguez’s arrival in CSKA was the exception to the rule this year, since many other players left Europe to go to the NBA or China. What do you think about this… vanishing trend? “Sergio’s case was clear. When you speak with him for an interview you will understand that the man has gone to the NBA twice. He knows very well that there is a very small group of teams that compete for the title and the rest, and they are many, function more and more like the G-League, since they don’t have the capacity to go one step further. If they reach the playoffs it’s a success. He wanted to be in a team to win titles. He was clear about his decision of whether or not to be in the NBA. He had 3 or 4 offers, either two-year or one-year deal, for a lot of money. He knew what he wanted and he chose CSKA. Milos went because it’s the first time and I understand him. And I understand the issue of China as well, which is something that has to be of concern to the decision-makers. In China and the NBA, the budget has been increased and it’s going to increase further; the budget of the NBDL has also increased. So, an American player will no longer go to PAOK or Aris, like they used to do and could then get a transfer to Panathinaikos, Fener, or CSKA. He stays there and waits for the dream of the NBA. There are the two-way contracts, now China comes along with 2-3 million and a much shorter season, where the athlete can rest and, not just that, he can go to the EuroLeague after December and get another million, for example… The numbers I mention are made up, but it can happen this way. But it’s a serious problem. It’s a problem that we have to look at in relation to the calendar. With NBA teams, aside from those that are in the playoffs, they are 16, for the 14 teams that have a roster of 15 players there is a 6-7 month downtime. That downtime is not what we say ‘I’m sitting around, smoking, having parties, etc.’ That’s when the athlete can improve individual skills, technique, 2-on-2 collaborations, lift weights, improve their body. It’s completely different because they are rested, they don’t have what happens when you play with your team. The athlete can improve as an athlete only during the rest period. Here, the athletes don’t have any downtime. I gave them 8-9 days off, Panathinaikos had a different interval, Olympiacos a different one, but what can each athlete manage to do in that time? They have a marathon in front of them.” Obviously, this problem is bigger now for the players who played in the EuroBasket… “Last year, we played 69-70 games. Add to that the games Nando played with his national team, that’s more than the NBA and without the rest.” EuroBasket: The Slovenian triumph and the bench of the Greek national team What did you think about the EuroBasket, especially the outcome and Slovenia’s triumph? “I think Slovenia deserved to win. It’s not only that they won it without losing; they had a cohesion and consistency. They were a real team. Congratulations to my friend Igor, congratulations to Prepelic, whom I had as a player in Banvit, a foreign player at the age of 19 then. It was a big move to trust a 19-year-old who left his country for the first time as a foreign player to make his first steps. His progress has been huge, he owes it to his passion and the consistency he shows when putting in the work and the aspirations he has. Congratulations to Dragic and Doncic, who is a great kid, levelheaded. Dragic is a leader. Congratulations to Serbia as well, who had big absences, and to Djordjevic, my friend Milan (Minic), Bogdanovic, and all of them. They had a great run. Congratulations to Russia too and the guys who had an amazing ruν. I’m proud because I’ve worked and am working with a lot of them. And congratulations to Spain also. In general, we saw very good rosters. I believe that Latvia is going to be of concern in the future because they’ve produced a crop that is scary. They can all shoot, create. For me, Peiners was also a positive surprise, coming off the bench, having a crucial role in the way he played defense and offense. The kid played in PAOK and is also on an upward course.” What is your comment about the course of the Greek national team? “Greece did not manage to be in the hunt for the medals, but they deserve congratulations too because, from all the adversity they faced in the group stage, in the knockout games they were there, they were present, and I think they gave 100%. This is how tournaments are, you’ll have the successes, you’ll have the good and the bad moments, I don’t think it was a failure. It was a good opportunity to flip the switch and play better, to put your ego aside and help the team.” Do you think that what hurt the team most was Giannis’s absence? “It was a big absence, no question. It was huge especially in the way it came about. He’s part of the preparation, then he’s not, he goes to China and then it wasn’t clear what was going to happen. It was a big absence in relation to the coaches’ programming, but it’s very important that other guys stepped up and the team came closer after everything they heard. I don’t know if everything that was reported really happened, but they had the opportunity to get together, the older guys talked with the others, they listened to them and they got together. The image that came out of that was good. I have a positive view of our run. Let’s not be overly negative. Obviously, if we didn’t even get out of the group stage that would have been something, but in the knockout game against Poland, we made it, in the knockout game against Lithuania we started looking a bit further and dream of medals. The national team did this. Let’s stop being either up or down. Let’s look at the bigger picture.” You were in discussions to take over the national team ahead of the EuroBasket, something that didn’t transpire. Is the door still open for a future collaboration with the Greek federation? “I said it then and I’ll say it again now. I thank Mr. Vasilakopoulos, Mr. Tsagronis, who came to Moscow, met with mr. Vatutin and Natalia Furaeva , the president and vice president, but also myself. We discussed every option, but unfortunately, it was not possible. I believe that the national team is a duty for anyone that can help. Obviously, we all helped and we help as much as we can, whether or not we are on the staff of the national team like I did while I was at Panathinaikos. Let’s go back a bit, about the windows. Even Igor (Kokoskov), with whom we spoke, will not be able to be in the next qualifying games. He doesn’t know whether he will be able to be in the World Cup. It’s not simple. A project that you have and now you want to enjoy and see the fruits of your labor, you cannot have it, so CSKA was also clear. It goes without saying that I remain a big supporter of the national team. I’m proud to be Greek and it’s great when you can represent your country in the colors of the national team through something that you do abroad.” Going back to the EuroBasket, what did you think about the top five players of the competition, with four “small” players (Shved, Doncic, Dragic, Bogdanovic) and a big one (Pau Gasol)? “I think we have to look at that with some rules, to vote for every position. All of those who were voted are definitely amazing players, they helped their teams to the max, no question. And I said, jokingly, that we should put Doncic in ‘4’. This line-up could play, but I think it would be more appropriate to vote separately for every position.” Do you agree with the view that guards are dominating more and more, something that can be deduced from what we saw in the EuroBasket as well? “Obviously I agree, partly, but basketball is a balance between small and big players. Even in the NBA, small ball is in fashion, because there are no big men who can give you that something extra. But there are big men like Marc Gasol, or Marjanovic who can give something extra, or Monroe in the NBA, or Drummond. It’s a balance. The guards have the ball more, they have more room, the space big men have to operate in is limited close to the key. Especially in Europe where you don’t have the three seconds like you have in the NBA, there is more traffic. The guard has more range, he can see the basket even better. It’s a balance.”